Well I Always think that is really up to the individual breeder on that...

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then i guess i might be wrong here...but yet again..do we know what sort of test applicable here in malaysia? for example..i will give u few cases.

1. PKD..yes PKD is genetic..confirm genetic..so we should not breed this gene pool...but incase that the kitten went to the new owner..and after 5 years, the cat having problem..so either die or seriusly ill, then the buyer went to the vet...so after post mortem or diagnostic...how do we 100% sure its PKD and not other kidney issue?not enough water feeding to the kitten/cat also can have a kidney failure...poison also can have a kidney failure..but of coz polycytic is genetic..but im saying as general kidney issue not only due to genetic..

2. HCM..its heart disease but there are more involving heart..not only HCM. we all know that not only HCM that can cause of heart attack..improper feeding by the buyer also can cause this in long term..same like if we human keep on eating too much those thing with high cholesterol etc..

the point is that...how do we know that the vet capable to prove that its really PKD when the the cat already die? how do we know if the vet telling the truth or just saying it out loud?does the buyer really want to do the autopsy or just pay some money to the vet to come up with the autopsy report? yes it is trust issue here ...

3. HD- yes the joint problem...but again..if the buyer keep them in very small area where the cat have very limited access for them to run, jump etc..then the muscle and joint will have problem..then again bring to vet and after the x-ray, found out the joint problem...so it is breeder problem again? excess of vitamin A can cause problem with HIP also.


i guess what im trying to say is that , 1.5 years of age is enough for a first stage filteration where the buyer will have the responsibility to go and check if there any genetic defect at that age..well its true that some will not have at that age but with report saying that the buyer did test when age 1.5 years then its a good proof that the buyer really serius about this and we as breeder can always help and support the case if it happen later stage.

also if we give lifetime warranty, then ppl will take for granted..so just wait until the end only making some noise..by that time it might be too late as maybe the gene line already been with many buyer already...

or what breeder can do also is that if got to know that serius genetic defect happen in that particular gene line, then the breeder can issue a notice to the buyer for recall. if the buyer decided not to return the cat then what else can the breeder say about it? (some may got too attach with the cat , so they dont want to lose them anymore)

conclusion is that the contract as just a guideline..and if the relation between the buyer and breeder is good, then it is good to use common sense..negotiate is the best way...like me..if 5 years down the road then i got to know that 1 of my line having problem...i dont mind recall them back and replace with another line..yet again..as breeder..it is the responsibility to test the stud and queen in the first place....

im not trying to make any argument here..just state my opinion..and i dont want to flame anyone...so pls..serius and honest discussion only...remember the target is to get a better line for the future and also educating the owner and breeder... cheers

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MBTI E-13 S-29 T-27 J-27

Yes, you are right. Lets say, the breeder gives 1 year assurance but on the 2nd year something pops up and cause is genetic and proven by the necessary authosrised bodies. What would you do?
Replace? Retrieve the cat and refund? I cant think of any other suggestion.

As a buyer, say you give me a certain period for genetic assurance and if i asked you why only this period. Do you have a valid reason to convince me (as a buyer) why? I would like your view on this. Thanks.

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Hi Farish, with due respect, sorry, I am still not convinced that genetic issues are triggered off by diet,etc as a whole. I will do some research on this. I am sure there is a valid explanation to most genetic condition in animals. I am also sure that vets can also rule out the difference between genetic issues vs animals that are under nourished,etc.

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no problem Ger1011, we just having discussion here...

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MBTI E-13 S-29 T-27 J-27

while HCM can be a little more controversial since the test (ultrasound scanning) available now cannot give an "absolute" +ve or -ve to any given case.........PKD genetic test is a very mature technique widely adopted in the world these days......

I will recommend the Aussie test kit big time - quick, convenient & inexpensive. If you do the sampling by yourself (just rub a little tissue from the cat's mouth with the enclosed swabs and send them in for testing) you will know the result in about 10 days or so. If it is done (the sampling) by a vet then the test is universially "official".

I'm sorry Farish, nothing personal, but it seems to me you have some serious misconception here - if I have proven that my cats are totally PKD free by testing them or their parents -ve before any of them is sold, then "NO ONE" can accuse me of selling them a PKD cat in case the cat concerned may eventually die with very similar symptoms as PKD (other kinds of kidney disorder or diabete for examples) in a few years' time.

Your cats either have it, or don't - there's no grey area in the case of PKD. And, the screening of genetc problems is "ALWAYS" a precautionary measure which aims at nothing but to prevent something from happening. The way I see it, what Farish used as an example isn't quite applicable in any of my cases - say, "NO ONE" can come back to me, taking any advantage of my guarantee for granted by saying that my cats are the victims of a certain genetic diseases of which I have told them (and written in contract) they were free from them. In the case of PKD, again, a copy of the lab test certificate would be included in the contract and the owner will need to obtain his/her official evidence from established authorities if he/she inisists that the cat is PKD positive........

Not quite possible, is it?

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Best CFA NFC Cattery in Asia 03-08
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Back-to-back Cat of the Year / Premier of the Year in CFA ID - Asia in 2 consecutive years

GC, DW Russmania Antonio Gaudi (Cat of the Year in CFA ID - Asia & 4th Best Norwegian Forest worldwide, 06-07)
GP, DW Russmania Bohemian Rhapsody (Premier of the Year in CFA ID - Asia, 07-08)

Proud Mother - GC, DW Heavenly Joy av Josdalsbreen, DM (CFA 3rd Best Norwegian Forest worldwide, 07-08)

http://www.showcatsonline.com/x/pkd-genetic-test.htm

http://animalsdna.com/feline/disease/

$40 AUD is what? - HK$240 which is about RM110.........it definitely is a minute fee and the ease of use is heavenly..........with this rate and convenience, baby, there really is no excuse of "NOT" doing it..........

to me, if these tests of all major DNA disorders, concerning the well-being of my cats, are handy from the net and do not involve the like of blood sampling (which is only appropriate to be conducted by a vet), I don't see why I have to rely so heavily on the vets or local labs for their availability...........

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Cattery Russmania Norwegian Forest
Best CFA NFC Cattery in Asia 03-08
www.russmania.com

Back-to-back Cat of the Year / Premier of the Year in CFA ID - Asia in 2 consecutive years

GC, DW Russmania Antonio Gaudi (Cat of the Year in CFA ID - Asia & 4th Best Norwegian Forest worldwide, 06-07)
GP, DW Russmania Bohemian Rhapsody (Premier of the Year in CFA ID - Asia, 07-08)

Proud Mother - GC, DW Heavenly Joy av Josdalsbreen, DM (CFA 3rd Best Norwegian Forest worldwide, 07-08)

[QUOTE=russmania]while HCM can be a little more controversial since the test (ultrasound scanning) available now cannot give an "absolute" +ve or -ve to any given case.........PKD genetic test is a very mature technique widely adopted in the world these days......

And it covers a number of persian-based breeds. Agree that there's no 'hit-and-miss' with PKD these days - it is negative (in which case, a breeder can guarantee the genetic disease is NOT there) or not. Isn't HCM testing in MCO possible by DNA testing, too? Sure got that impression from Dr Susan Little at last year's WCC seminar - though granted, it's for one mutation only. (MYBPC) And DNA testing for PK-D is available for abys.

I will recommend the Aussie test kit big time - quick, convenient & inexpensive. If you do the sampling by yourself (just rub a little tissue from the cat's mouth with the enclosed swabs and send them in for testing) you will know the result in about 10 days or so. If it is done (the sampling) by a vet then the test is universially "official".

Microchip number when submitting is useful

I'm sorry Farish, nothing personal, but it seems to me you have some serious misconception here - if I have proven that my cats are totally PKD free by testing them or their parents -ve before any of them is sold, then "NO ONE" can accuse me of selling them a PKD cat in case the cat concerned may eventually die with very similar symptoms as PKD (other kinds of kidney disorder or diabete for examples) in a few years' time.

No decent vet would mistake PKD for any other kidney disease, on autopsy.

Your cats either have it, or don't - there's no grey area in the case of PKD.

In the breeds designated as suitable for the test.

And, the screening of genetc problems is "ALWAYS" a precautionary measure which aims at nothing but to prevent something from happening. The way I see it, what Farish used as an example isn't quite applicable in any of my cases - say, "NO ONE" can come back to me, taking any advantage of my guarantee for granted by saying that my cats are the victims of a certain genetic diseases of which I have told them (and written in contract) they were free from them. In the case of PKD, again, a copy of the lab test certificate would be included in the contract and the owner will need to obtain his/her official evidence from established authorities if he/she inisists that the cat is PKD positive........

I've bred cats which turned out to have PKD back in the days of ultrasounding only (one breeding cat didn't show anything when done at 1 yr, but did a year on) and much depended on the skill of the sonographer. The nano-second DNA testing was available, all my breeding cats were done (all neg, thank God!) and I have absolutely no compunction in selling ALL with a lifetime guarantee on PKD! Copies of parents' certs are always available.

QUOTE]

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Lesley (Tasmania)

Hi Russell , im ok here .. no worries...just that if we make sure that the parent is genetic defect free..i.e PKD in your case, then why we still want to give a livetime guarantee if later on the buyer cant claim for it?..to me , to give a certain amount of period for the guarantee is sufficient enough. But PKD cant and wont develop at later stage after you did the test? If im not mistaken ,i did read about the mutation also...does the mutation happen during the early stage or can develop later?

For my cattery,

At this moment i only test for FIV,FIP and FELV. HD will be done somewhere this month or next month in JB, as HD just need routine check with x-ray.

For HCM, I'm still looking for a way on where i should get the test kits. 1 of it as mentioned by some breeder here is from USA.

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MBTI E-13 S-29 T-27 J-27

Ok like this..to make it easier for everyone who serius about genetic defect, then why dont we list down what type of genetic defect and what kind of test available and where we can get and how much. also perhaps can list down out of the listed test , which 1 is the safest and easiest to do.

does those FIV, FIP, FELV consider genetic defect?

type of breed..
PKD, HD, HCM, SMA, ...

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MBTI E-13 S-29 T-27 J-27