Cat Forum - CONTROVERSIAL! What makes a pedigree cat

#41

23-07-2006, 12:13 PM

keyt

Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2006

Posts: 16

yes...it is tue...lesley

i agreed your statement ( Lesly ) that:
1. "some very humble-looking cats can produce wonderful kittens"
2. "Breed the paper, not the faces"
3. "Breed the grandparents, not the parents".

my wonderful persian (male) came out from very humble-looking mom..

#42

23-07-2006, 05:00 PM

meonku

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: desa jaya, JB

Posts: 104

tq Lesley.. sure good advice for a breeder to be...

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#43

24-07-2006, 07:25 AM

comyncats

Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Hobart, Tasmania, Aust

Posts: 2,210

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlkkl

What if a not-so-good quality kitten is registered as pedigree simply because its parents are pedigree? Doesn't it defeat the purpose of pedigree in terms of standard/quality control?

That's absolutely what it's about! Happens all the time. Registration (and pedigree) has nothing to do with quality control. It has to do with there being an official record of its ancestry. Finito.

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Lesley (Tasmania)

Last edited by horatio : 24-07-2006 at 09:17 AM. Reason: user forgot to include the [/QUOTE] at the end

#44

24-07-2006, 07:37 AM

comyncats

Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Hobart, Tasmania, Aust

Posts: 2,210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

Dear Lesley,

Ok now that I am home and able to think “straight”, I like to reply you post about the controversial issue. Don’t worry, Lesley, I will be veryyyyy gentle with you because I know your intention and I know you know cats very well (way more than me), unlike some people who either don’t know or would love to use your suggestion to abuse the “whole meaning”.

Am I not gentle enough to you, honey

You are!!!!!

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Lesley (Tasmania)

#45

24-07-2006, 07:40 AM

comyncats

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Hobart, Tasmania, Aust

Posts: 2,210

Quote:

Originally Posted by keyt

And the first D.M. (Distinguished Merit) female cat in Australia's history was one of mine - she was so plain I never showed her, but ah............... the kittens she produced! (And she won it on the basis of her kids' BIS wins at National shows - the harder way to achieve it!)

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Lesley (Tasmania)

#46

24-07-2006, 10:27 AM

comyncats

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Hobart, Tasmania, Aust

Posts: 2,210

The no-papers cat was....

Just to satisfy any curiosity (if there was any!) I suspect I know who bred him, but he was found at about 3 yrs in Q'ld by someone who moved here... and for his time he was very talented, but was entered in HHP.

Attached Images

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Lesley (Tasmania)

#47

24-07-2006, 10:47 AM

Jay

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Location: Kuala Lumpur

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Jay is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by comyncats

That's absolutely what it's about! Happens all the time. Registration (and pedigree) has nothing to do with quality control. It has to do with there being an official record of its ancestry. Finito.

I concur. Its like this, Bratt Pit and Angelina Jolie - both are good looking but that doesn't guarantee that their children will look good too. There are cases, (many I think) kittens from very fine dam/sire that are not conform to their breed standard. Those will be sold as Pet quality - with papers of course.

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#48

24-07-2006, 11:45 AM

faieza

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Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Amsterdam, NL

Posts: 916

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

A bit research.. probably right and probably not so accurate – How Longhairs got Persian titles in the first place.

Malaysia (Malaya) was under British colonial for many years. Those days, the “madams” and “Sirs” used to have expensive Pets especially Persian cats.

Most Malaysians (not all) at that time were:-
1) Malays – Farmers or British men’s drivers or maids
2) Chinese – Working in Tin mines / open businesses
3) Indian – Working in Rubber Plantations
The fact was, most Malaysians at that time were uneducated or attended British school in Primary levels only except royalties and few Rich families.

They have seen these longhair cats (mostly Persians) in the big mansions and they were amazed because they knew they couldn’t afford to buy or to have them. The word “Persian” was synonym to them referring to Longhair cats belongs to the “Madams” and “Sirs”. To them, all longhairs are “Persian” because that is what being told to them. The fact is, actually these Madams and Sirs found it as not important to explain the breed to the low education people. They don’t see any points explaining in lengthy that some of their cats are Mixed Persians with others.

From time to time until the end of British era, all these Persians have mixed with “Kampung Cats” but because the Madams and the Sirs at once said “Longhair cats are Persians and they are EXPENSIVE”, the so called “tacit knowledge” have been passed on to generations – and unfortunately until TODAY!.

My dear loving grandmom (late) until the last of her days in life still refers “Longhair Cats” as Persian. She was a Singaporean and her father used to work with British Madams and Sirs. When I asked her why she called the longhairs as Persian, she told me all these stories about Persians and the Madams and Sirs. She heard the “term” from her mother; her mother heard it from her mother and on and on.

These misunderstandings have been passed on for generations, the moment a baby was born, their parents will say longhair cats are Persians and that’s why every time new users came in this forum, they will say PERSIAN, that is basically the only name for cat’s breed that they knew other than kampung cats. Did you notice that?

I know this because I too at once upon a time thought all longhairs were Persian. I learnt my mistake well and I tend to tell other fellow Malaysians that.. “Stop laaa… we are no longer living in British era”. Not to forget, some people didn’t hear it from their parents or grand parents but from friends who heard it from their parents!

Typical Malaysian type of cats:

1. Long hair: Kucing Parsi or Persian
2. Shorthair CP: Kucing Siam
3. Shorthair colorful: Kucing kampung
4. Dirty and sick stray cats: Kucing kurap

Sometimes, Long hair cats were called Kucing Siam as well.

This we need to change. The easiest way to do this is by calling:
No paper: Domestic
With paper: Pedigree (breed name)

It's about time we stop calling all LH cats as Persian. Don't ya think?

#49

24-07-2006, 12:11 PM

Jay

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Kuala Lumpur

Posts: 2,923

Quote:

Originally Posted by faieza

Typical Malaysian type of cats:

1. Long hair: Kucing Parsi or Persian
2. Shorthair CP: Kucing Siam
3. Shorthair colorful: Kucing kampung
4. Dirty and sick stray cats: Kucing kurap

Sometimes, Long hair cats were called Kucing Siam as well.

Hahahha yea, you are right. Some people would call "Siamese" for shorthairs for no apparent reasons. I wonder why, but I am sure that one was not the knowledge passed on by the madams and sirs.

Hehe

Quote:

Originally Posted by faieza

This we need to change. The easiest way to do this is by calling:
No paper: Domestic
With paper: Pedigree (breed name)

It's about time we stop calling all LH cats as Persian. Don't ya think?

About time, Yes!!

#50

26-07-2006, 01:27 AM

Abymummy

Senior Member

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 1,982

My RM0.02

Just to add some thoughts:

As one of the rare birds who breeds Abys in this part of the world:

1. My foundation cats are re-tested for PKd (as opposed to PKD) and are thankfully found PKd normal
2. I breed according to paper and not looks
3. All my kittens are usually registered at 40 days
4. The pet quality is SOLD at pet quality prices, pre-neutered and comes complete with registration, transfer of ownership is borne by the new owner.
5. Show neuters are sold at show neuter prices and paper comes when the neuter/spay is done or completed. Transfer of ownership is borne by the new owner and requests for pedigree (bloodlines) are done straight to CFA by the new owner, not me, the breeder. Why? Simple, the average cost of ownership transfer and 4 generation pedigree certicate is around RM140 (converted from US$, excl. courier charges), I've heard that some local breeders will charge from RM250 to RM500 (huh???) for the papers. I DO NOT want to be known as a cheater and thief. If the new owner wants these papers, do it yourself so that you wont feel cheated!

Yes, "pedigree"ness comes with a piece of paper and that comes from either a local or global registry, not from the breeder per se.

If any breeder wants to sell unneutered pet quality kittens at unreasonable prices, without paper, then I'll have to say - caveat emptor (let the buyer beware). Claims of pedigree will not be entertained by me, personally.

I have an unpapered Aby seriously lookalike at home - he's still a DSH and will remain a DSH until the previous idiot owners whom abandoned him at my vet's (furless and abused) gives me the papers to prove otherwise.

What irks me is still the fact that people will still spend inordinate amounts of money at petshops for unpapered pet quality purebreds. Why spend a couple or few thousand RM when you can get a better, papered cat for the same amount?

Really, does it cost too much to register your pet quality kittens and have them marked NFB (Not for breeding) before you sell them?

BYB's are not just an Asian problem, it's a worldwide problem. Asians are unfortunately more naive when it comes to defining and determining pedigrees and breeds. Especially when a "purebred" kitten goes on sale!

(And it's not helped by unethical Oz breeders who dump their pet quality unneutered kittens over here in Asia!)

So to end this, I'll have to agree with Faieza and Jay:

Registration paper = pedigree
No paper = Domestic

A cat is a cat is a cat - I love them all!

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